Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

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Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  backtothegrave on Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:48 am

Hi guys!!
what do you think about former italian premier, silvio berlusconi?
know that
1)he is the richest man in italy, and one of the top 20 in the world (if you don't find him in official charts, remember that he "had to gave up" much of his wealth to his sons and his friends)
2)he owns almost half of italy's mass-medias: three national wide tv channel - as many as the italian republic itself; several newspapers,while other are owned by his friends; he also controls some of the biggest books editors; radios and local tv channels
3)he has relationships with sicilian mafia. he has relationships with former politicians implied in national and internationalwide cases of corruption
4) while prime minister, he made laws to protect himself and his allies from italian justice: he created a law that made possible for trial accused to choose the trial court (that made possible to choose a friendly court in wich to have the trial). so he stopped all trials against himself, and saved several friends from the jail.
5) by law he had to give up one of his tv channels. he sold it, but then changed the law and kept it. so he received the payment but didn't gave the tv channel away
6) he shamed italian foreign politics, bending inconditionately to every choice made by usa
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  frankyspeaker on Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:09 am

backtothegrave wrote:Hi guys!!
what do you think about former italian premier, silvio berlusconi?
know that
1)he is the richest man in italy, and one of the top 20 in the world (if you don't find him in official charts, remember that he "had to gave up" much of his wealth to his sons and his friends)
2)he owns almost half of italy's mass-medias: three national wide tv channel - as many as the italian republic itself; several newspapers,while other are owned by his friends; he also controls some of the biggest books editors; radios and local tv channels
3)he has relationships with sicilian mafia. he has relationships with former politicians implied in national and internationalwide cases of corruption
4) while prime minister, he made laws to protect himself and his allies from italian justice: he created a law that made possible for trial accused to choose the trial court (that made possible to choose a friendly court in wich to have the trial). so he stopped all trials against himself, and saved several friends from the jail.
5) by law he had to give up one of his tv channels. he sold it, but then changed the law and kept it. so he received the payment but didn't gave the tv channel away
6) he shamed italian foreign politics, bending inconditionately to every choice made by usa


Yes, i know him!
He really is a piece of work.
He is also one of the owners of football club AC Milan.
Many dutch football stars know him very well.
I hate corruption! Mad
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  backtothegrave on Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:03 am

frankyspeaker wrote:
Yes, i know him!
He really is a piece of work.
He is also one of the owners of football club AC Milan.
Many dutch football stars know him very well.
I hate corruption! Mad

he is THE owner of ac milan.... though in theory it's not completely his, in practice he still controls it. once he said he would lead italy to future victories as he did with milan. i wonder where he wanted to buy all those foreign stars needed!!
there are many thing he owns too: a chain of general stores for example. factories. villas.
he's the perfect picture of the rich&powerful man, untouchable and always with lots of beautiful women around him.
and, sadness, he's an idol to most of young italian who want to be rich and full of women like he is, and mayb because they think breaking the law is a simpler way to become rich than working.
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  OptimusGonzo on Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:55 am

I had never heard of him until you mentioned him, and I check google news daily to see whats out there. It makes no sense, for someone who supports the US so heavily, why does our media not even mention him? or at least mention him very little. Its terribly Ironic, that the richest man in Italy controls the media in Italy.

And while you never have to break the law to become rich, there is a similar mentality in America today, but even more people are becoming rich by exploiting the knowledge of a particular field of work. Like Certain people who design websites that take off and hire a bunch of people until they sell them. Its still worse that he sets a prescedent though.
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  backtothegrave on Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:07 am

OptimusGonzo wrote:I had never heard of him until you mentioned him, and I check google news daily to see whats out there. It makes no sense, for someone who supports the US so heavily, why does our media not even mention him? or at least mention him very little. Its terribly Ironic, that the richest man in Italy controls the media in Italy.

And while you never have to break the law to become rich, there is a similar mentality in America today, but even more people are becoming rich by exploiting the knowledge of a particular field of work. Like Certain people who design websites that take off and hire a bunch of people until they sell them. Its still worse that he sets a prescedent though.

well,the joke become truth. in italy we always wondered what you think of berlusconi, because he always speaks of his friendship with bush and with american people. but if you don't even know him, well he's even more ridiculous than we thought. Very Happy
and maybe it's bad that n the usa you don't know the priem ministers of one of your most important allies. but that's another story
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  OptimusGonzo on Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:50 pm

backtothegrave wrote:
well,the joke become truth. in italy we always wondered what you think of berlusconi, because he always speaks of his friendship with bush and with american people. but if you don't even know him, well he's even more ridiculous than we thought. Very Happy
and maybe it's bad that n the usa you don't know the priem ministers of one of your most important allies. but that's another story

well actually its scary now that you mentioned it, Italy is hardly in the news at all outside of football (soccer for those who lack comprehension). Its very ironic, especially because your leader is so supportive of us and we never even hear about him. Has George Bush even gone to Italy? All I ever hear about Italy is that its a wonderful nation, at worse a little dirty, and all I ever hear about France is how its a beautiful nation, but hateful of Americans who don't bother to know a thing about their nation. Lol, speaking of which I actually know more about French history in general than Italian history, and thats not to say I'm ignorant of Italian history, on the contrary. The only part of my knowledge of the history of Italy that I'm just too fuzzy on is after the 1500s, because Spain expanded, England expanded, France Expanded, Russia expanded, Germany became a bigger player on the central European scene (Fredrick the great and Carlos Quinto) , but what happend to Italy? why did the former powerful nation of merchants not expand too? Internal problems? anyway, like most Americans, I'm slightly Italian. As well as slightly hispanic and mostly Irish, but not German or Eastern European like many other people. I mean, my name is Gonzalez after all, you'd think I was a wetback if you hadn't seen me before.



http://news.google.com/news?q=Italy&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wn
This proves my point about the western news and Italy. If they didn't play football and make up such a high percentage of our ethnicity, we'd have no idea it existed I'd bet. I mean, look at the number of articles compared to other nations, Italy 50k, France 100k, Germany 100k. Its sadly true
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  backtothegrave on Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:10 pm

yes, i feel it's not normal. in italy anyone who has studied at least until 18 years old knows something of american and european history, and we are one of the least cultured countries in europe.
i study political science at university, so it's normal that i know most of the names of your presidents during XX c., and can tell on a blank map where are the most important of your states.
but many people can tell at least a few of american history, and of the history or geografy of bigger european countries too.
this situation reminds me of a book i read years ago. it's "centomila gavette di ghiaccio" by giulio bedeschi. tells about the tragedy of italian soldiers sent by mussolini to fight in russia in 1942-43. a part from that, somewhere in the book one of the italian soldiers speaks with a russian girl, and gets shocked as he find out that she knows a lot of italian history, the names of the most important monuments, the location of most famous cities. he instead nows nothing of russia, apart that it's a big flat country and it's really far away from italy.
maybe italy now is not as important as france, but it has more or less the same population (slightly less than 60 millions inabitants each, the same as uk). i feel that's a big fault of american school sistem, and IMHO that's why sometimes americans seem very dumb to europeans. if europeans knew what's the problem, they won't judge you dumb no more, i think.
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  backtothegrave on Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:15 pm

and, well, italy didn't have a great place in history until XIX c. because it didn't existed!!! it was divided in small countries, each one with his own language (different dialects, a man from northern italy couldn't understand one from te south, and maybe one from central italy either), most of them under foreign rule. italy became a nation on the second half of XIX c. by violent means: piedmont annexed the rest of italy through wars.
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  OptimusGonzo on Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:19 pm

backtothegrave wrote:
this situation reminds me of a book i read years ago. it's "centomila gavette di ghiaccio" by giulio bedeschi. tells about the tragedy of italian soldiers sent by mussolini to fight in russia in 1942-43. a part from that, somewhere in the book one of the italian soldiers speaks with a russian girl, and gets shocked as he find out that she knows a lot of italian history, the names of the most important monuments, the location of most famous cities. he instead nows nothing of russia, apart that it's a big flat country and it's really far away from italy.
maybe italy now is not as important as france, but it has more or less the same population (slightly less than 60 millions inabitants each, the same as uk). i feel that's a big fault of american school sistem, and IMHO that's why sometimes americans seem very dumb to europeans. if europeans knew what's the problem, they won't judge you dumb no more, i think.


See I can agree with that, I see all these people around me where I live, and I know they're very smart and fully capable of learning in our school system, the problem is they don't bother to teach them anything worth knowing about the world. See the posts I made in reference to Sadom666 calling Americans dumb and the video on youtube that goes with it. It was in the post George Bush by uberwarz. I cannot compare Italy on a basis to France or Germany, the only reason why Italy might not be viewed as less important is because they're less moody about their political stance, and I base that on having never seen a major political issue with Italy in the US media in my life. Just because they're friendly though doesn't mean they're unimportant, I think thats what alot of Americans get wrong, they don't care about you until you bother us. 60 million people for good or for bad can have a huge impact on the actions of a continent.
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  backtothegrave on Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:05 am

well, after all, america is named after an italian mariner. and was another italian mariner that discovered it. Smile at lest we are a bit important to you, even if most of americans don' know that.

as for me, i know that americans are not dumb. if you were dumb, we would be dumb too because most of americans are of european origin!!!
that' only an educational problem, and in italy we'll soon have a similar problem i fear... Sad

you said most americans don't care of other countries unless they get cross their road. well i think in the future they'll have too, because if european unification goes on as hoped european union will be the greatest power of the world, with more than 500 millions citizens and the strongest economy on the planet. strong army too, with nuclear strategic weapons and nuclear submarines.
but that's the future, and not a close one. and of course i think and hope that usa and eu won't be enemies.
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  OptimusGonzo on Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:50 pm

how could they be? with Russia's interest in the East spreading its weapons to all that would want to butt heads with the US, all the US can do is seek the support of Europe to help further a universal goal.

And anyway, speaking of which, the EU has an enormous amount of coastline and rivers to defend, how big is their military and navy supposed to be if this all gets said and done?
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  backtothegrave on Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:13 am

OptimusGonzo wrote:how could they be? with Russia's interest in the East spreading its weapons to all that would want to butt heads with the US, all the US can do is seek the support of Europe to help further a universal goal.

And anyway, speaking of which, the EU has an enormous amount of coastline and rivers to defend, how big is their military and navy supposed to be if this all gets said and done?

true... eu coastline is not easy to control, expecially in the mediterranean.
river are different concern, only few are big enough to be navigated.
think that eu countries, while having small but highly efficient armies, spend something like 0.5% of budget for defense, so it won't hurt noone making it up to 1.5 as to rapidly boost defence.
and one think you probably haven't heard of in america, eu countries, a part from some in the east, have really good relationships with russia. france and germany have closer relationships with russia than with usa (that's due to recent american foreign policy) and they have together something close to an alliance. italy too has close relationships with russia, berlusconi himself, in spite of being quite passive to bush's requests, is a great personal friend of putin. even now that berlusconi is no longer prime minister italy needs to mantain good relationships with russia because we depend almost completely on russia's oil and natural gas.
on the other hand russia needs to be close to eu. now russia and china are allied "against" usa, but don't forget that russia's natural enemy is not the usa but china. and if usa show ostility to russia (as they're doing now) russia needs eu help to shield against possible ostile policies from china [china claims for itself large parts of siberia, don't forget that in 1969 there was even a war between soviet union and china]
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  OptimusGonzo on Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:58 am

I thought China and Russia were friends, like they practice various military exercises together? and also, why would China want siberia without wanting Mongolia first? that makes little sense to me...
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  backtothegrave on Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:10 am

OptimusGonzo wrote:I thought China and Russia were friends, like they practice various military exercises together? and also, why would China want siberia without wanting Mongolia first? that makes little sense to me...

mongolia is almost everywhere deserts and prairies and so good only for cattle, while siberia (though it's really cold in most regions) has some fertile lands that now are underpopulated. china is overpopulated and needs to expand its territory, the most obvious direction is siberia. of course russians and siberian peoples don't want to live under chinese domination. border clashes have been almost daily in the past decades. i don't know how's the situation now, but i think china won't renounce to siberia easily.

as i said above, china and russia are friends as long as they perceive usa as a common menace, but as soon as things change russia and china will be enemies again.
then the most probable alliance will be russia & india vs china, with usa and eu forced to choose their side (i'm almost sure they'll coose for russia of course)
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  OptimusGonzo on Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:15 am

But China shares so little border with Russia, other than Manchuria, they have like none. I would like to know the current status of Chinese Russian relations, because as far as I heard over here, they're good 'ol Chums.
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  backtothegrave on Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:25 am

OptimusGonzo wrote:But China shares so little border with Russia, other than Manchuria, they have like none. I would like to know the current status of Chinese Russian relations, because as far as I heard over here, they're good 'ol Chums.

yes, but mongolia's always been less more than a russian puppet, and also japanese-soviet clashes before ww2 have happened in mongolia.
after all, that border seems short, but if you look closer it's more than a third of the lenght of the usa-canada border. and on the siberian side of that border there are regions rich in natural resources.
current status of reltions seems really good, but don't forget that they had something close to a war in 1969 while they were both communists. international relations change really fast after all...
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  OptimusGonzo on Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:24 pm

So then this is just speculation then? And the US has economic support tied in China so much that we are dependant on a nation that might threaten Russia and Russia is currently threating any retaliation againt a central European Missile defense program which they call Anti Russian but we call protective against Iran and any other country currently developing mid ranged missiles? lol, que lastima. I guess Russia is currently fated to be our sworn enemy, no matter what we do to try and help relations with them.
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  backtothegrave on Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:52 am

OptimusGonzo wrote:So then this is just speculation then? And the US has economic support tied in China so much that we are dependant on a nation that might threaten Russia and Russia is currently threating any retaliation againt a central European Missile defense program which they call Anti Russian but we call protective against Iran and any other country currently developing mid ranged missiles? lol, que lastima. I guess Russia is currently fated to be our sworn enemy, no matter what we do to try and help relations with them.

mmm... i think that russia is the enemy that your government has choosen!!
first of all, those protective missiles have been deployed in spite of a former nato-russia agreement that prohibited nato to deploy an kind of missile on countries bordering with russia-csi, while prohibited russia to deploy armies at the border of the same countries. in this case, the fault is not russia's. it was the usa that went against the treaty, russia's deployed her armies next to the border as an answer to the deploymnt of those missiles.
i think usa are trying to revive the cold war against russia because they need an enemy as to justify huge defense expenses. having russia as sworn enemy implies another thing: it divides european countries between pro-usa and pro-russia, making the development of eu more difficult. that's something close to "divide et impera".
usa government knows that the real menace is china not russia. russia has no real interest in creating tension, and has no claims on bordering countries, while china has both claims on taiwan and on american economic control sphere. in fact, china is kicking usa's control off from many countries both in africa and south america.
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  OptimusGonzo on Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:35 am

"i think usa are trying to revive the cold war against russia because
they need an enemy as to justify huge defense expenses. having russia
as sworn enemy implies another thing: it divides european countries
between pro-usa and pro-russia, making the development of eu more
difficult. that's something close to "divide et impera"."

I don't think that at all. I don't know how your media portrays it, but I know that ours, in every article I've seen on the subject shows Russia as the agressor, and the US just trying to do something which Russia opposses. It shows Russia constantly building up its military while we do nothing because we do not want a war with them. Why do they continue to do so? To me, not only does our media portray Russia as the agressor, the evidence supports it, I don't see why Russia would be oppossed to a central Europe missile plan today, especially since it has no interest in targeting Europe, Iran has plenty of interest in targeting Europe, and we even offered (or at least thats what I read) to cooperate with Russia to let them help build and inspect the place if they wanted to. Personally, I don't think that the US wants a weak Europe at all, because if Europe is weak, then the West as a whole is weak. If Europe is weak, then chances are, the Middle East is strong, and they have always been historically greater enemies of you that of Russia or the US.


"usa
government knows that the real menace is china not russia. russia has
no real interest in creating tension, and has no claims on bordering
countries, while china has both claims on taiwan and on american
economic control sphere. in fact, china is kicking usa's control off
from many countries both in africa and south america."

If our government knows this, it does not show it. Condi Rice is constantly getting rebuffed in trying to make any headway with Russia on scaling down their military, of which most US politicians think can only be beaten by ours, ignoring the fact that today Russia has better technology, and that ATM our military is in a state of decay in Iraq and Afghanistan. I know China is kicking any influence we have in Africa, and we don't see it as China as the agreessor (or at least we don't have it portrayed by our media as China as the agressor) but we see it as Asia as the agressor, and as such, Russia seems seemingly helpful to advancing China's goals.

This is just how its been potrayed by me, someone who looks at google news daily for articles, and many have been written by sources considered on both sides of our political spectrum
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  backtothegrave on Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:23 pm

i don't know how free are medias in america, but in europe we have quite every possible point of view, even from neo-fascists to neo-communists. medias are not completely free, because sources are often concealed (that's the same problem as in you country), but there's a true freedom of speech, also due to our recent history (don't forget that we have tens of political parties. each one with its newspaper, not only two huge parties as in the usa)

what we see in italy (and quite shure in the whole eastern europe) is that china is a great menace to our economy and to democracy, while russia is not seen as a menace (a part from poland, but that's de to its history) in spite of its not-completely-democratic system. don't forget that we're facing a strong immigration from china, and also an economic dumping from them.

only a few medias have talked about tensions between usa and russia, but they showed the idea that it was america's fault, instead russia did what possible for cooling the tensions. the sinking of the kursk several years ago is thought to be caused by american subs, for example.
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  OptimusGonzo on Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:28 pm

and see our media doesn't potray anything like that really. It is good to know how our countries represent things differently.
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  backtothegrave on Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:33 pm

have you heard of the pacific conference that happened two years ago?
it was held in perų (or chile? don't remember exactly) amongst the leaders of the countries of the pacific.
bush was ignored, while all south american leaders cared only the chinese delegation (and they made great affairs that day...)
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  OptimusGonzo on Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:34 pm

backtothegrave wrote:have you heard of the pacific conference that happened two years ago?
it was held in perų (or chile? don't remember exactly) amongst the leaders of the countries of the pacific.
bush was ignored, while all south american leaders cared only the chinese delegation (and they made great affairs that day...)

nope, our xenophobic media doesn't care what we're not involved in, apparently
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  backtothegrave on Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:41 pm

it's sad to know that...
in a few years the usa changed completely at the eye of italians.
from those who saved us from fascism you've become something like an unwelcome master, one that makes former friends to bend to its will by strenght or money.
that's sad, expecially if you think that italian point of view on the usa has always been positive, except during the vietnam war
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Re: Italy's public enemy #1: Berlusconi!!

Post  backtothegrave on Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:43 pm

now a bit of fun... a link that a friend sent to me

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/7/76/World_map.gif

lol!
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